Episode 1 - Ruth Kline-Robach

This week on Red Cedar Stories, Eric is talking to Ruth Klein Roebach.

Welcome to Red Cedar Stories, a podcast all about the Red Cedar River at Michigan State University.

I'm your host, Eric Tanz, and today we are joined by Ruth Klein-Roebach.

Ruth is an outreach specialist with expertise in community-based water resources management issues.

Ruth has appointments in both the MSU Department of Sustainability and the Institute of Water Research, and in addition to teaching responsibilities, provides training and technical assistance related to watershed planning, sourcewater protection, and stormwater management.

Ruth, welcome and thank you for joining me today.

Thanks for having me, Eric.

I'm happy to be here.

Why don't you talk a little bit more about your role here at MSU and how the Red Cedar River impacts your work?

So I have a really interesting appointment here at the university.

I am an academic specialist.

I'm an outreach specialist, specifically water.

Resources outreach.

I have been at the university for 32 years, which shocks me when I say that.

And my whole tenure at the university has been involved with various water resources projects.

So when I first began my work, I was primarily working on groundwater programs and then that transition to stormwater and watershed planning.

And I think I started working on Red Cedar River issues probably in the early 2000s is when we first started asking questions and thinking about the river.

And I have worked on river issues through that entire time since the 2000s.

I'm also, in addition to my appointments in the Department of Community Sustainability and the Institute of Water Research, I'm a member of the MSU Extension Center for Lakes and Streams.

And so we provide all different kinds of outreach programs relating to rivers and streams throughout Michigan, including the Red Cedar River.

Great.

I'm curious, do you recall what led to the shift from focusing on groundwater to including the river in the early 2000s?

It was really based on upcoming federal regulations for the university, and that was part of the Clean Water Act.

So in the early 2000s, the university started thinking about the upcoming Clean Water Act regulations around stormwater that we would have to be complying with beginning in 2003.

So we started doing some early reconnaissance of water quality sampling in the Red Cedar River, trying to figure out what this really meant for the university.

So essentially what happened is under the Clean Water Act, which was initially passed in 1972, and I know that you've seen the picture of the Red Cedar River.

Before the Clean Water Act.

It was crazy, dirty.

So we passed the Clean Water Act in 1972, which for the first time regulated point sources of pollution.

So finally, the federal government and then the states, through their implementing powers, started to require permits for direct discharges into the river.

Now that didn't include stormwater at that time.

We're really looking at industrial sources of discharge, wastewater treatment plant discharges, which we now mostly call water resource recovery facilities.

But we didn't look at what was happening in urbanized areas.

So in the 90s, large communities started to have to look at their stormwater.

But middle and medium-sized communities like the city of East Lansing, the city of Lansing, Michigan State, we were not part of those stormwater regulations.

In 2003, that changed.

So the federal government said communities of 50,000 or more, it was based on population and population density.

They said you have to figure out what's coming from your stormwater through your outfalls.

Outfalls that dump into your local water bodies.

So, before those regulations took effect, I'm actually getting to your question.

Back in 2000, we started doing some water quality sampling on the river, and there was a whole group of faculty members and interested citizens.

We had some agency folks at the table, and we did some E.

coli sampling.

And we found at that time some very egregious sources of E.

coli contamination in the Red Cedar.

And so, that was really what jump-started our effort.

And from there, things just took off.

And we started doing all kinds of water quality sampling and community outreach and just kind of different aspects all related to the Red Cedar River.

And it's really continued all the way through today, which is kind of cool.

Yeah, great.

Well, thank you for that overview.

You mentioned stormwater a couple of times in your remarks, and I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about what stormwater is.

Management is and why it's so significant for the MSU campus and the communities surrounding it?

Sure, this is a really important topic for communities across the U.S.

right now.

So, in the early days, when we put our water infrastructure in place in the U.S., we had what was called combined sewer systems.

And so, what that means is that all of the sanitary waste from a community in a municipality, so toilet water, dishwasher, washing machine, all of that sanitary waste went into the same pipe as our stormwater.

And all of that water went to the nearest wastewater treatment plant for treatment.

And then, once the treatment is complete, it gets discharged back into the local water supply.

So, the problem with combined sewer systems is that when you get a large rain event, the municipal wastewater treatment plant can be overwhelmed.

And so, those combined sewer systems had overflow valves, basically.

And in a period of extreme rain, then we would see raw sewage dumped into our local water supplies.

We don't want that.

Those are combined sewer overflows.

We don't want that.

So we spent an enormous amount of money across the U.S.

to separate our sewer systems.

And we still have some combined systems out there, including in Michigan.

But here.

I believe Lansing is still working on separating theirs.

You betcha.

But here at Michigan State, we have what is called a municipal separate storm sewer system, an MS4.

So these stormwater regulations under the Clean Water Act are regulating those separated storm sewer systems.

Because what happened is we separated the systems and we thought, cool, now the sanitary waste goes to the wastewater treatment plant and the stormwater goes directly to the rivers and streams.

Well guess what?

Mmm, that water is not super clean.

The stormwater is not super clean.

So we said, oh gosh, the federal government said, I think we need to start regulating these.

So that's really what the upshot is.

All of the stormwater that lands on this campus that hits a sealed surface, a rooftop, a parking lot, a sidewalk, all of that water ends up in a catch basin or a storm drain, which leads to a pipe, which leads to the river.

And so we call those outfalls.

And it's something you probably don't notice unless you're looking for them.

But when you walk, when you're leaving today, Eric, this is your challenge.

I want you to walk along the river and look and notice the outfalls.

Notice the pipes that are entering the river.

And that is what is draining our stormwater.

So each one of those pipes is regulated under the Clean Water Act.

We have a permit for that.

It's our MS4 stormwater permit.

And with that comes a great responsibility.

There are a whole host of people at the university that I work with, wonderful people from various departments, and we're putting a lot of work into making sure that the water that comes out of those outfalls.

is nothing but stormwater.

So there's nothing else going in there.

It's a huge responsibility.

And all of the communities across Michigan, I think there are now close to 400, if not more, communities that have stormwater regulations.

Here in the Greater Lansing area, there are 17 communities and organizations and groups that have stormwater permits.

So for every pipe that comes to the river, every outflow, it's connected to a catch basin.

That's a lot of infrastructure across campus that maybe people aren't noticing.

I guess I'm just curious, where are the catch basins?

That's another challenge I'll give you.

When you're walking along the sidewalk, just look for the grates on the side of the sidewalk.

Sometimes they're kind of in the middle of the sidewalk.

Those are catch basins or storm drains.

And of course, the purpose for that is we need to get the water off the roadways and off the sidewalk so we don't flood.

But that water shoots straight to the river.

Hopefully you will see some of our details.

Cals that say no dumping drains to river, and that's part of our public education program, which is part of the requirements of our stormwater permit.

So there are more than a thousand catch basins across campus draining the water away from the roadways, and that's what we're trying to keep clean.

Maybe changing gears a little bit.

Before you started working with the Red Cedar River, you were still on campus, and I'm wondering if you have any recollections of your first impressions of the river when you got here.

Yeah, you know, it's so interesting because you gave me that question in advance, and I think I've been here for so long.

I don't remember what my first impressions were.

And I did, I visited campus.

I'm originally from Michigan.

I visited campus as a high school student coming for state competitions for various clubs and organizations.

And I remember that the river was here, but I don't remember first impressions.

I will say, though, that I speak to a lot of alumni and just a lot of people who have been around for.

A while, and it is really interesting to listen to their first impressions.

And back before we passed the Clean Water Act, when anything went, and we had the Cuyahoga River in Ohio was catching fire, and you know, the surface waters in the U.S.

were really a mess, I talk to people who remember the Red Cedar as it was back then.

And they'll jokingly say, Oh, yeah, I remember when you could walk across the Red Cedar in the wintertime and the summertime because it was so disgusting.

And that's something we've really been fighting with our public education programs.

Students are still coming to campus with these preconceived ideas about the river.

Absolutely.

So, grandparents, great-grandparents talk about how disgusting the Red Cedar was.

I mean, you probably heard people used to call it the Red Sewer or the Dead Cedar.

I have had students that say, Oh, I heard you have to get a tetanus shot if you touch the water in the Red Cedar River.

So, we have all of these preconceived ideas.

About the river, that our public education programs are trying to counteract.

And it's interesting that it's still like that today.

And I think part of it is because of the visuals.

I mean, there are a lot of tannins in the river, so the water is dark and turbid-looking, and so it's not pristine water.

Like, I don't know if people are thinking of Lake Michigan and the gorgeous waters of Lake Michigan.

That's not what the Red Cedar looks like.

So, I think maybe that's part of the first impressions that people get.

Yeah, I've definitely come across a lot of those similar statements about Tetanushots and the Red Cedar, the Red Sewer.

And part of the reason why I want to do this podcast and talk to people about the river is to counteract that narrative.

Yeah, I think that's wonderful.

And so, I just want to emphasize that the Red Cedar, we are a river in an urbanized area.

There are going to be water quality impacts related to that.

Of course, there are a lot of issues with the upstream portion of the watershed as well.

So, I teach a couple of undergraduate classes.

On water resources management.

And when I speak to my students, I emphasize that when we talk about water resources and water quality, what we're talking about is land management because it's the way that we manage the land.

It's the care and the caution of our activities on the landscape that are going to impact water, surface water, and groundwater.

So what we're really talking about is land use and how that relates to water quality in the river.

So it's an urbanized river.

It's much healthier than most people think, you know, those that are coming to campus with these preconceived ideas.

Absolutely.

But we do have water quality issues in the Red Cedar River, and primarily our issue of concern is bacteria or E.

coli in the river.

So with your students, do you see changes in their perceptions of the river over the course of a semester?

Oh, absolutely.

And it's super cool.

We talk about information sources and where can I find more information?

And it's not only about the river, but then it makes them curious about the water in their hometown watershed, both surface water and groundwater, which is cool.

Excellent.

Speaking of watersheds, maybe you could talk a little bit about what is a watershed and why is planning at a watershed level so important?

Oh, super good question.

So a watershed is an area of land that drains to a common point.

Because of that, it's topographically defined.

And if you think about a raindrop or snow melt, what we're thinking of in a watershed is that all of that rain or all of that snow melt goes to a common body of water.

So what that means is you and I here sitting at the library are in the Red Cedar River watershed.

So all of the land area surrounding us when it rains, now here it's through our storm drains, our catch basins, and our stormwater outfalls.

But in the upper portion of the watershed, it's the landscape that's draining by gravity from high elevation to

Low elevation into the Red Cedar River.

We are in the Red Cedar River watershed, but the Red Cedar joins the Grand River near Potter Park Zoo.

So we are also in the Grand River watershed.

The Red Cedar is a subwatershed of the Grand River watershed, and the Grand River drains to Lake Michigan at Grand Haven.

So we are also in the Lake Michigan watershed and the Great Lakes watershed.

If you think about getting back to this idea that it's the care and caution of how we are using the landscape, planning and managing on a watershed basis makes a heck of a lot more sense than this weird jurisdictional approach that we have with our local governments.

In the state of Michigan, we have 1,800 local units of government that are making land use decisions that could potentially impact water.

Villages, townships, cities, counties, everybody, we're all doing our own thing.

That doesn't make any sense for water, right?

Because I could be doing one thing here on the

Campus of Michigan State University.

My friend Cliff Walls in the city of East Lansing, they could be making other decisions, the city of Lansing, and so on and so on.

So, what we have to do is come together, all of the communities that are located in the watershed.

And by the way, in the Red Cedar, I think we have 22 different local units of government.

We have to talk to each other.

Hey, what are you doing in terms of land use controls, planning and zoning, and any kind of decision making you're doing about things that could impact the river?

And make sure that we are in harmony with each other.

The decisions that we're making make sense for the water.

The water doesn't recognize boundaries.

Yeah, I was just thinking that same thing.

The lines that we draw on the map as people, the water just flows right over them.

You betcha.

So, when you think about the Red Cedar River now, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?

Well, it's a wonderful resource for this campus.

How fortunate are we to have the Red Cedar River flowing smack?

Through campus.

And I think just the idea that we have this amazing resource and we have this tremendous responsibility to do whatever we can to help protect it, those are the things that I think of.

But I think one of the things that I'm really excited about is I'm seeing kind of a renewal of excitement about using the river as a resource.

So canoeing and kayaking and fishing and bike trails and walking trails.

And I always, we've talked about this for many years, my colleagues and I, that if you don't value something, why would you protect it?

If we can instill in people a deep appreciation for the river, then they're so much more likely to want to get involved in some of our protection activities.

You know, that's kind of cool to see.

There's all this momentum that's building up with Friends of the Red Cedar.

We're looking at launching kayaks and canoes.

And putting up signage so people know where they are, where can they put in, where can they take out.

Here on campus, we've opened up fishing to the river.

It used to be restricted.

We didn't allow fishing at all for many, many years.

And then we only allowed fishing in a tiny little portion over by the Sparty statue.

And now, for most of the campus stretch, we allow fishing.

A couple of weeks ago, I like to walk on campus or run on campus along the river, and there was a student fishing underneath the Farm Lane Bridge, and he caught a pike.

And it was the coolest thing to see him so excited about his fish.

And you could tell he wanted to talk to somebody about it.

So I was happy to oblige and talk to him about fishing in the Red Cedar.

So that's the kind of thing that we really want to see more of.

I mean, we identified 32 different fish species on the campus portion of the Red Cedar.

People don't understand that.

Whoa, they say, really?

Seriously?

It's a thriving ecosystem.

It is very much so.

Just getting the word.

Out about that and saying to people, yeah, enjoy this resource.

This is our shared resource.

Yeah, it's something to care for and something to enjoy.

You bet.

You mentioned that you've been on campus for about 30 years.

What do you think the Red Cedar River means to the MSU community?

It's such an integral part of our voice on campus, and you know, we sing about it.

I love to just, as I'm walking along the river, watch the students and all the faculty and staff and visitors too, but just sit along the river and study or just enjoy the sounds of nature, watch the squirrels and watch the geese.

I really think it is such an important part of who we are as Spartans.

The interesting thing, though, is that the outreach and education can never stop because we always, always, always have a fresh batch of folks coming in.

Always new students to students.

Always, always, always.

And so just getting the word out and helping people.

Understand the resource that we have and the role that they play in helping to protect it.

That's why I'm excited to see this renewed energy because it just helps to keep the momentum going in terms of just talking about the river and getting ideas for how we can protect it together.

Yeah, well, I am happy to talk about the river with anyone who wants to talk about the river.

That's so cool, I love that.

So, what's your favorite thing to do either on or near the Red Cedar?

Well, mostly now I just enjoy walking or running along the river.

I try to do that several times a week.

It just helps me keep a pulse on what's happening.

I can check to see if things are cool.

And, like I said, I really like to see people out and enjoying the river.

Yeah, I love the river trail through campus and into Lansing.

You know, I think it's such a great resource and such a great way for people to connect with the river, even if they don't have a boat or don't want to get wet.

You can still be there and interact and value the river.

Do you have a favorite memory of the Red Cedar River?

One of the things that I still laugh about when I think of it is one of my classes that I took out.

So I teach a couple of undergraduate classes, and I always try to get the students out to do some macroinvertebrate sampling, or we'll do some water quality sampling occasionally.

And one year I had a group of students, and we were by the administration building, and we all had our waders on, and we had nets, and we were collecting the critters that live along the bottom and under the rocks in the river.

I saw a student, he kept bending over.

I caught his movement out of the corner of my eye.

Well, he was finding crayfish, and he was grabbing them and sticking them in the front pocket of his waders.

I said, What are you doing?

And he was from Louisiana.

And he said, Well, I'm going to take these back and I'm going to have a crawfish boil.

So I convinced him to put our poor crayfish back, but I always laugh when I think about that student.

In the early years, that's how students interacted with the river.

They would fish and eat the fish right out of the river.

Right.

I will say now we do allow fishing on campus, but it is catch and release only.

So I do want to be clear about that.

We want to put them back.

Let them stay in the river.

What do you see as the future of the Red Cedar River?

I am really optimistic about the future of the Red Cedar River, and I am because of people like you just seeing interest.

Oh, Mike Stout with Michigan Waterway Stewards and our Fisheries and Wildlife Club and their cleanup events and Matt Bailey and Landscape Services and all of the work that he and his crew have done along the river.

In the early days when we first started our stormwater work, we had that kind of momentum and excitement.

We had faculty members from five or six different departments, multiple colleges, and it was cool.

And we did a lot of really interesting stuff.

But over time, things kind of settled down.

You just don't feel that sense of excitement.

I'm feeling that sense of excitement again, which is super, super cool.

And so I think if we can just keep this energy and excitement going, the future of the Red Cedar is great.

We're doing so much, and there's so much activity among our regulated communities here in the urbanized area.

And we're working with different partners on all different kinds of outreach activities.

I mentioned the MSU Extension Center for Lakes and Streams.

There's a lot of really positive motion right now, which is super cool.

So I think we're going to be doing great.

The future of the Red Cedar is bright.

I love it.

I think that's really interesting.

You talked about how there was a lot of enthusiasm in the early 2000s.

You know, in doing some of my historical research, you know, it seemed like there was a lot of activity and research that was going on in the 70s in conjunction with the Clean Water Act that you mentioned.

So it seems like maybe the interest on campus flows in a cycle.

There's a way that we could ebb.

Don't let the cycle get to the ebb and just keep the flow.

You know, because I've been doing community-based water resources stuff for so long, it really does take what we call spark plugs in the community.

So, people who, for whatever reason, they're just interested in a topic.

And so, if we can keep the spark plugs there, probably people don't understand my spark plug reference anymore, but it's like people who just are willing to put the energy into it.

And so, if we can find that enthusiasm and excitement in a few people, that's what keeps it going.

You know, that's what keeps that momentum there.

Yeah, and I think it's really great that there are people who are serving in that capacity right now, and they're not just at MSU, they're across all the different nonprofits and different communities.

And so, it helps to facilitate that collaboration and get the interest in the river spread across a wider geographic range.

For sure.

That's cool.

I guess my last question is, do you have any final thoughts that you want to share?

Anything that's on your mind about the Red City River that you haven't touched on yet?

Well, you know, there's always a role for you, the listener.

There's always something that you could do to participate.

For example, I have a website called msu-water.msu.edu, and I have a lot of information on there about stormwater management.

And I work in cooperation with the Greater Lansing Regional Committee for Stormwater Management.

That's a mouthful, but it's the GLRC, and it is the 17 communities that come together in this area to meet our stormwater regulations.

We always have stuff going on.

If you are interested in getting involved, just hop on that website, send me an email, and let me know.

And I can put you in touch with the people that are working on stormwater and watershed work in this area.

You can volunteer.

For a cleanup event, you can help plant a pollinator garden.

We just had a rain garden workshop a couple of months ago.

Should have gone to that.

You betcha.

So, and we'll have more.

We'll do more.

We have a training symposium for local municipalities about salt and winter maintenance to protect the local rivers from chloride contamination.

So, there's always something happening.

And if you have that little spark and you think you might be interested, reach out and we'll find a way for you to participate.

The more, the better.

I mean, that's such a great way to close.

So, Ruth, thank you so much for joining me today.

Thank you for all the work that you do to support and protect the Red Cedar River.

Thanks for having me, Eric.

It was fun talking about it.

It was a pleasure.

Next time on Red Cedar Stories, Eric will be speaking with Brandon List.

This podcast was recorded and edited in Michigan State University Library's G.

Robert Vincent Voice Library.

The views expressed.

On this podcast, do not reflect the views of Michigan State University Libraries or Michigan State University.